Author Topic: Muscle Action  (Read 2490 times)

suedanceclayton

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Muscle Action
« on: January 05, 2015, 03:44:24 pm »
I have a question concerning the "System actions", this explains what is happening in the exercise but the muscles actually do the opposite, is this true?   For example if  the action is external rotation it actually helping the internal rotation.

Daniel Tkach

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Re: Muscle Action
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2015, 12:33:58 pm »
I have a question concerning the "System actions", this explains what is happening in the exercise but the muscles actually do the opposite, is this true?   For example if  the action is external rotation it actually helping the internal rotation.

Exactly!

If an muscle performs internal rotation (such as pectineus), performing external rotation will be one thing to do to stretch it.
To really stretch a muscle you should do all the opposite of what it does.
Pectineus is a hip flexor, hip internal rotator and hip adductor, so to stretch it you combine all the opposite of those actions in one system or exercise: hip external rotation, hip abduction, hip extension.

Pectineus Muscle Performs
* Adduction
* Flexion
* Internal rotation

So on the System (that's what we call each exercise) we do:
* Abduction
* Extension
* External rotation

When performing a kinesiological stretch we choose one of these actions as the target and another as leverage (usually the rest or the actions will remain static, without either going deeper or moving at all).

There are systems with more than two actions, please go through the handouts, as an exercise I'd like for you to tell me about those systems.
Daniel Tkach
ElasticSteel Team
www.ElasticSteel.net
www.EasyFlexibility.com

suedanceclayton

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Re: Muscle Action
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2015, 10:45:00 pm »
Thank you.  What defines "leverage"?  Is it always a sideways movement?   I understand target as being the goal. 

Thanks,
Sue

Daniel Tkach

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Re: Muscle Action
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2015, 10:26:32 am »
Thank you.  What defines "leverage"?  Is it always a sideways movement?   I understand target as being the goal. 

Thanks,
Sue

You're welcome and Thank YOU for taking your time to learn the system!
Simply put: Leverage is the action that creates space for the target to go deeper. It can be any movement: forwards, backwards, sideways, turns.

If it is clear so far you can go on reading. If it becomes confusing on the way just stick to the definition and think about it when you do the exercises. "Leverage is the action that creates space for the target to go deeper".

It will look sideways if our leverage action is abduction and adduction, it can look forwards and backwards if we are doing flexion and extension anatomically speaking; it will look like turning if we are doing rotations (spine rotations, shoulder rotations, hip rotations etc).

We can come up with different analogies, let me know if you understand this one: let's say that a certain person won't walk on floor that has not been swept before, so he takes a broom and keeps sweeping sideways on the floor before steping on it while going forward. The sweeping would be the leverage, what's cleaning the path, walking forward farther and farther is the person's goal, so he keeps sweeping sideways cleaning out the dirt so he can then walk step by step forward till he reaches his destination.
I bet you can come up with many analogies like this one.

Please keep up the great study work.

Daniel Tkach
ElasticSteel Team
www.ElasticSteel.net
www.EasyFlexibility.com

suedanceclayton

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Re: Muscle Action
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2015, 03:14:56 pm »
Thanks for answering (again).  I understand it makes space, just wanted to understand the logic.  I will do your assignment as well in the next few days.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 12:40:16 pm by Daniel Tkach »

Daniel Tkach

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Re: Muscle Action
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2015, 12:41:34 pm »
Got it, as you know already.
By the way, there's an EDIT buttom for you to correct a message if you sent it then realized there were mistakes or things you wanted to change  :)
Read you around.
Daniel Tkach
ElasticSteel Team
www.ElasticSteel.net
www.EasyFlexibility.com

Andrei I.

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Re: Muscle Action
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2015, 01:37:37 pm »
This is a very interesting thread. Paul has a whole video on methodology which explains how target and leverage should be used, but I think the question what exactly the target and leverage are - not from the point of view of their application, but from the point of view of why they work and how they work - could benefit from some clarification in this forum.

I came up with the following thoughts on this, and it would be good if other members could comment on this, too.

This is how I understand it: We have a habit of using a standard system of coordinates / primary movement directions when we think about movements and stretches. We often think about movement of our arms and legs in forward direction, sideways, we may think about their rotation. This brings us to the notions of forward flexion and extension, sideways adduction and abducion, internal and external rotation, etc.

However, our muscles rarely, if ever, are aligned along these simple directions. Their line of action is usually "diagonal", and since many muscles are wider (or narrower) at their insertion points than at their origin, their different fibers may have different directions of action. Consequently, a single linear direction of pull on a muscle, especially aligned with what we consider one of the primary directions of our body movements, rarely enacts and stretches the whole muscle. A muscle may have fibers which are tight, which prevent its further extension, but they are not very well stretched by a single linear action of a standard stretch.

Since almost every muscle is involved in several directions of movement, Paul separates these directions into a leverage and a target. In my mind, the decision of what is called leverage and what is called target depends purely on the purpose of the exercise, there is no anatomical reason for calling one of them leverage and the other target. This makes these two actions fully reversible and interchangeable.  I even think it may be beneficial to reverse them on a regular basis to fully stretch each muscle in all directions.

The analogy that comes to my mind is that with an air balloon. If your child asks you to inflate an air balloon, and it is one of those thick and small balloons which are hard to inflate with your mouth, you will start by pre-stretching it with your hands. You will "massage" the balloon by pulling it with your hands in different directions. It is much easier to stretch it in one direction at a time than stretch the whole thing by blowing air into it. Stretching it in one direction is not enough. You have to stretch in in different directions to make the whole balloon softer. Once you did it, you will see that the balloon got thinner and larger, and you can easily inflate it with you mouth.

I think target and leverage do the same thing, they stretch the same muscle in different directions. On the one hand, once the muscle elongates slightly from a stretch in the "leverage" direction, we have fewer fibers left that are short and can resist stretching in the "target" direction. This, in my mind, what "create space" means. On the other hand, pulling different fibers of the muscle in different direction for a short time each time they are pulled likely fools our body into "thinking" that stretching reflex does not need to be triggered (or the body does not know in which direction to trigger it) - which is what Paul is referring two when he says that KS avoids the stretching reflex altogether.

I found it interesting that this idea somehow correlates with the principle of Opposing (Counter-Balancing) muscle groups which I learned from a resistance stretching technique which I also use. That principle states, basically, that the range of, e.g., extension/flexion of a muscle group can be impacted by limitations in a perpendicular direction, e.g., rotation, because a muscle often has to rotate in order to pull. If (in this example) rotation is limited by tight fibers which are responsible for that action of the muscle, its other action(s) (what we think about as its primary linear action(s)) will also be restricted. Hence, if stretching in one direction "stalls" and no progress is seen, one should try the "perpendicular"/"Opposing" direction and release the muscle in that direction, and then come back to the "primary" direction to stretch it further. This is a similar concept to "target/leverage", but Paul combines these two actions in a single stretch rather than using them separately.  Also, Paul is much more specific when it comes to focus on individual muscles rather than muscle groups.

Very interesting material indeed, which makes you think. My next step will be to read classical texts on applied kinesiology, such as the book by Floyd. It always helps to understand what you are doing and why this works or does not work.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 01:49:33 pm by andrei_istratov »

Daniel Tkach

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Re: Muscle Action
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2015, 03:13:34 pm »
Let me quote Paul:

"The principle is rather simple. In few words. Each muscle is responsible for multiple actions. Because each one is unique, it can be isolated through specific movements and positions. When moving through one of it actions space is created, when retreating, the space is open for short period of time. Another action for the same muscle, moves into that space and secures it. Our program do more than just K.S. though, they also include various other exercises specific to the skills in the program."

I'm sorry to say this Andrei, but if a prospective customer read what you wrote they would run away haha! We keep it Easy, and simple. A lot of research was done by Paul and over 1000 instructors each of them with their own students and fellow instructors, test after test and adjustment, this is what we came up with. It's great that you want to know all the why's, but I guess you would have to reinvent the wheel, go through all the work that Paul did. If you feel apt for the task, go ahead by all means. After a few years of practising the system, I can explain it theoretically very simply put, just as Paul does, give or take more or less details, and I know it works. Why? Because I tried it on myself and a few hundred people.

If you read the latest research on flexibility, researches don't really agree on what is actually happening when you are stretching or even if you are really stretching a muscle. Some will say "it's all nervous system", others will say "notorious physical changes occur", others will say there are no changes, it's all in the tendons... and you can go on like this forever. So if you are able to gather research groups in a laboratory, do the same and better tests that all researches did and come up with better conclusions, then you will be doing a very original work, I'm sure it will be appreciated. So as I always say, keep us posted on your discoveries!!!

Take it easy ;)

Daniel Tkach
ElasticSteel Team
www.ElasticSteel.net
www.EasyFlexibility.com

Andrei I.

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Re: Muscle Action
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2015, 05:08:44 pm »
Thanks, Daniel. I agree that our bodies are so complex that nobody fully understands how they work and why they work the way they do. We know much, much more than people knew 100 years ago, but it is only the tip of the iceberg.

I understand that Paul and the rest of the team came to this system through trial and error, through experimentation and observations. Since we are neither machines nor computers, and since we are all different, there is no mathematically exact explanation. We find that something works, and we use it.

The reason why I try to come up with models like this is because they help me to visualize what is going on, make sense of what I am doing, as opposed to simply following the instructions. Call it my way of learning, if you wish. Works for me, may not work for the others.

You mentioned the work that Paul and the instructors who he worked with him did. This made me think that we (I can only talk about myself, but I think most "distant learning clients" are in the same position because  the contents of EasyFlexibility and ElasticSteel sites are the main sources of information) know very little about what Paul is doing (besides videos),  where he is teaching, if he is working with groups and private clients.  While I am not looking for private sessions at this time, it could be good to know what is available.

I actually must admit that when I started looking into this system and when I was thinking if I should buy a few videos and invest time into learning the system, I tried to find information about Paul and his system. I thought he might be offering in-person seminars, live events, I thought he would offer training sessions at various locations. Somehow, nothing like this showed up. I found a few reviews of the system, some were critical, many were very positive, I found old announcements of video sessions. Really, very little by way of essential information.

Is there any information about Paul's and his associates' professional activities that is not already on the web that you can share? Your answer in the previous post regarding the extensive experience which this system is based on suggests that Paul, you, and perhaps other people who interact with him, might be doing much more to learn, develop, and share the knowledge than maintaining the web site and releasing videos. In one of the other posts, I recall you mentioning that you have more private clients that you can handle.

It goes without saying that I am only asking only about the professional activities of Paul and his associates, specifically the activities which are part of his core business, open to the general public, and those which Paul and you would not hesitate to talk about with anyone who is interested.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 06:18:35 pm by Andrei I. »

Daniel Tkach

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Re: Muscle Action
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2015, 08:10:29 am »
Hello Andrei.
We are continuously working and researching to come up with more effective systems, maybe as opposed to other companies who are focused on social media, spending thousands of dollars a day, we spend that on improving our method for the benefits of all. I bet you can write 10000 pages about the benefits of being like those other companies, that's not what we want. No wonder our system is unique, that's where we put our energy, and on our website you have all you need to properly learn the system. You already saw that I think, that should be more than enough to trust our expertise  ;)
Daniel Tkach
ElasticSteel Team
www.ElasticSteel.net
www.EasyFlexibility.com